Episode 78

Side-Benefits of Side-Projects

This week on Overtime, Meg hits up a few virtual museum tours worth checking out, and gives us a rundown of how unemployment and PPP loans work as a self-employed creative right now. Plus, Charli Prangley and Femke van Schoonhoven stop by to talk about making time for side projects while balancing a full-time job, and how that heck that works.

More time isn’t going to magically appear out of nowhere. I have to be okay with the things that I’m saying yes to, and accept that it means saying no to other stuff.

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Meg: Oh, hello! Welcome back to Overtime, I’m your host Meg Lewis, and wow, I don’t know about you, but as the week’s go on, I’m getting very giggly. I’ve become a baby. I have about one or two Zoom meetings every day, and every time, it doesn’t matter if I’m meeting a person for the first time, or if it’s an old friend, I start laughing at something they do so hard until I’m crying every time. It just keeps happening. And I feel like I’m experiencing everything for the first time. I don’t know what is going on, I think this is what happens when I don’t socialize anymore. But I’ll keep you updated because it’s going to get real weird on this podcast as we go along.

This week on Overtime, I blaze through every museum in the world’s art collection, I run through how unemployment and PPP loans work, and our buds Charli and Femke from Design Life stop by to talk about side projects on top of full-time jobs and how the heck does that work?

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Meg: Boop boop, let’s get right into the news today. Okay, so Dribbble launched a blog post launch – do you launch a blog post? They submitted one, they put up, they popped up, they popped it up, they put up a blog post about virtual museums and all that’s happening there in the virtual art space because wow, it’s really cool that so many museums and exhibitions are going online virtually for us to enjoy. And I think that’s really nice. It’s a nice way to support the arts and continue expanding your worldview and your outlook on life. So, if you don’t know the MoMA, the Museum of Modern Art in New York, it has an exhibition online through Google arts and culture, which is beautiful, it’s interactive, they’ve done a really great job. They’re showing over 100 of their most famous pieces of work, which is modern art mostly and contemporary art from people like, you know, the big hitters like Van Gogh, Gauguin, Cézanne, I almost said Suzanne. Cézanne. (Laughs) Famous artist, Suzanne. I believe there are a lot of famous Suzanne’s out there that are also artists. So, I hope that their work is also in the MoMA.

And then San Francisco’s Letterform Archive has an online exhibition. There’s the Museum of Brands at London that has a packaging design exhibit right now. Then, of course, Cooper Hewitt has online stuff at the moment. There’s a Web Design Museum, allegedly, according to Dribbble’s blog. And, okay, this sounds goofy because web design already is online, right? Could you go to the Web Design Museum in person before? I don’t think so. But now, it’s, you know, more important than ever to look at web design through web design’s eyes. Ah, beautiful, romantic.

The Louvre, our buddy the Louvre. We had the Louvre on the podcast last week as our special guests. Just kidding. So, if you’re tired of looking at the Mona Lisa in real life, you can look at the Mona Lisa on your screen like me because, just like, I’ve seen her enough times in person. It’s like, just let me see you virtually, Mona. The Children’s Museum, or sorry, I think it’s called the International Museum of Children’s Art, which, okay, excuse me, but it is over 100 works of art created by kids of all different kinds of medium, which is very exciting to me, someone who doesn’t have kids. I don’t have a single piece of children’s artwork in my home. So, this is just really filling that need for me in so many ways. The Neon Museum – oh, we love to go there and post those pictures on Instagram, don’t we? And we can’t now, but we can post pictures of ourselves on Instagram looking at neon on our computer, which is less attractive for the gram. But normally, you know, they have a bunch of acres of museum grounds where you could bop your way through seeing different neon all lit up in Vegas, it’s a Vegas thing, but now it’s online. And for some reason, you have to type in a password to look at the art, the neon online, kind of like a speakeasy, but less alcohol-y. More neon. But the password is just “neon,” so go right in there.

And then Google arts and culture again, has launched a selection of street art which is pretty cool. So, they have street art up there from all over the world and that’s really, really amazing. And you know, you can just virtually feel like you’re outside in public looking at art that way. And then lastly, FITM which is the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising – why do I know what FITM stands for? It’s because I went there. That is the school I have a degree from, oh my God, and so much student debt from, but they have a very impressive collection normally, in their museum of basically iconic film costumes and old pieces from different collections over the past decades. So, if you want to go and see what Karl Lagerfeld was designing in the 80s and have a nice laugh at it, or cry, or I don’t know, whatever emotion you want to feel, it’s totally your brain, your choice. You can see it online, which is very exciting. So, lots of options if you love to look at art. I’m definitely the person where if you plop me into a museum, I’m that person that just breezes right through. I’m just blazing through, I’m back in like 10 minutes like, “I’m done, saw it all let’s move on.” And my friends that love art just find me so frustrating because I just kind of walk by and look at everything and don’t even take time to appreciate it. And that’s my own fault. I know it’s not a great quality. I’m working on it. But it’s hard to work on this quality about myself on the internet when I’m just looking at it online because my finger’s just like next, next, next, next, next, next and then I go to Twitter. Ah, it’s horrible. Part of the problem.

Okay, now let’s talk about some wonderful, wonderful treats available to people who are self-employed, or freelancers right now, like me. As you know, I’ve always been a freelancer and never had a job-y job, so I’ve never really applied or qualified for unemployment in the past because that’s not a thing for self-employed people. But thanks to the horrifying, horrible global pandemic, now we can. And it’s important to know that if you, in your work, if you’re self-employed in any way, if you are affected at all workwise by this pandemic and you are making less money, you have less clients, less work, less opportunities, you qualify for unemployment right now, which is great. That is awesome, we’ve never had that before. So, I have absolutely no shame at all saying that I applied for unemployment because my client workload, my design work is way down. Most of my brand design and marketing design clients have put the projects on hold, or you know, me as a contractor has been not really an essential expense so they moved the work in house, there’s been a lot of stuff going on. And it’s a huge bummer, because I’ve lost a lot of money and a lot of opportunities over the last few months.

And luckily, I was able to apply for unemployment and got approved and so, the money is starting to roll in a little bit at a time, and that’s just wonderful. So, I apologize if you’re not in the US because I’m about to give a bunch of information on how to do this process if you do live in the US. So, if you don’t live in the US, I apologize, but also, be glad that you’re not here because things are getting rough here with our cases and it’s not looking great. So, listen ahead if you are in the US, if you’re not fast forward because we got a lot of great stuff later on in the show. But if you’re in the US and you’re self-employed, or you have a small business, you qualify, and you can apply. What it means is that it’s a state by state thing, so you have to apply through your state. I live in Minnesota and my state provided this wonderful PDF kind of tutorial showing me exactly how to apply, exactly what to answer on all the questions so that my application just breezed through the system and didn’t have any red flags, which was very helpful for me. But make sure you check with your state. And again, of course, I’m not an expert on this, I have done it before, so hopefully I know a little bit more than you do.

But the way that it works is they calculate your base pay as a freelancer based on past tax returns, which it took them way too long to figure out how to do that. But they finally figured it out, which is great. And so now they try to pay you half of what you normally make. But of course, there’s a cap on how much you can receive, which is in Minnesota at least, that’s $740 per week. And then I believe on top of that, there’s that extra $600 we keep hearing about from the federal government, which is just like a little treat from the feds. Thank you, I guess. But I mean, 600 plus 740 a week is amazing. That is great. That is so helpful for us right now. And for me, what you have to do, and I think for everybody, you have to go in every week and report exactly how much you made that week, and how many hours you worked, so that way they can calculate if you deserve the full amount every week, or if you deserve a little less, or if you deserve nothing, which is sometimes what I get.

So, for me, I have a lot of streams of passive income, thank glob, because my goodness, without the online classes and the coaching and the shop sales, and royalties and stuff I make from a bunch of different places, money does come in every week that’s outside of my client design work, which is gone. So, there’s a lot of stuff that I do that still allows me to make money, which is great, but I have to make sure I’m very honest about that and report that every single week to the government, so that way they can calculate how much I get in unemployment the following week. And of course, if you report the wrong number, you ended up making more come tax time, then you have to pay them back and that’s my worst fear. No, thank you.

There’s also the paycheck protection program. The PPP, the PPP, the PPL, he peeps. Oh, gosh. Okay, so that program is a possibly forgivable loan depending on what you spend the money on and it works as well for self-employed people. So, 1099 contractors, self-employed people, if you have an LLC, if you have an S Corp, it doesn’t matter. You don’t have to have payroll employees to qualify for this loan, which I did not know until almost too late. But it’s very confusing to apply, you have to apply through your bank, and then the banks give out the money. So, I found the most helpful article I could find, and it was through, which is like a bookkeeping service, and they have a lovely, free advice blog post about exactly how to calculate your loan amount as a sole proprietor or as somebody who’s self-employed, or even if you have an LLC, and then how do I fill out the application properly and it’s very helpful since this is such a complicated thing. And apparently, it’s very easy to apply wrong and then you will lose the money because they keep running out of money because everyone needs help. So it’s important that you read through this article, find other resources of information, maybe have an account or a professional look over your application before you submit it to make sure you’re doing it correctly because they’re going to run out of money so soon, by the time this podcast episode launches, they might have run out of money, so just keep checking. But hopefully, they’ll just keep replenishing their money. I don’t know. I don’t know what’s going to happen. But let’s not panic. Let’s be in control of what we can control, which is applying for these things if you need the help. And again, these loans, it could be like, $10,000 $15,000 $24,000, however much you qualify for, they can be forgivable, which means you don’t have to pay them back if use the money on approved number of things. So, it’s mortgage payments or rent payments or paying employees and that sort of thing. So, for me, I have a workspace that I have to pay rent on that I can’t really afford right now otherwise, so this loan is going to be largely helpful for me to pay that rent now, which is definitely needed.

So, you have control of your situation in some regards. It’s just so confusing. So, search on the internet, find what you need to know for your bank’s PPP process, your state’s unemployment application process because it’s rough out there, and we all need some help. And if we can get it, go apply for it and fight for yourself because you deserve some money. You deserve some help right now. I sure do. We all do.

But don’t you dare feel shameful about applying for unemployment or applying for a loan. You know, we’re all struggling out here and I am happy to share this information with you and tell you that I’ve had to apply for it myself. Because it is rough out there, no one is hiring, nobody’s paying for design work right now. It’s very hard. It’s hard to get work. I’ve seen some people doing really well during this time, I’ve seen most people not doing so well right now and it’s hard. So, reframe this in your head as you’re taking advantage and utilizing something that’s available to you. And try to think of the silver linings here: if you can take some of this unemployment money, if you can grab this loan, it will hopefully help you stay afloat so that you can pay your bills and then utilize the time, all of this free time you have that you used to spend doing work, and utilize it to finally do some of those things you’ve been putting off for so long. For me, I had all kinds of stupid, weird videos, and funny dumb ideas that I had in the back of my head for years. But it didn’t seem important enough to do, because I never really had enough time every week. It was on my to do list for weeks and weeks and weeks, years and years and years, and I never got around to it because I didn’t feel like I had the time because I had so much client work and so much other stuff going on.

And now, if you go on my Instagram account, you’ll see me up there doing it. I’m doing it now because I have more free time. I’m doing all this stuff that is really helping further my career and further my voice in the way that I’ve been wanting to this whole time, but I haven’t had time to do it. So, I know it’s easy for me to just be like, “Do this stuff now,” whenever your brain is on fire, and if your brain is on fire, that’s okay. Take care of your brain first and then get to action whenever you can possibly do so. I don’t want to be one of those people that’s like, “Just do it,” with no regard for your feelings or your brain space. But yes, find the silver linings. Please don’t feel ashamed. Don’t feel bad about your situation. It’s nothing personal on you. It’s the way the world is right now. And do whatever you can to find those silver linings.

Meg: Well, aren’t we lucky? Today on the podcast, we have a couple of special guests. These two are designers in the tech industry, both on the product and marketing side, and in addition to having very successful careers with full time job-y jobs, they also have a number of very successful side projects and a podcast together. It’s Femke and Charli from design life. Hello, Charlie, hello Femke, how are you?

Charli: Doing good, as good as can be.

Meg: I love that because it’s still giving somebody the nice good response that they’re expecting from you, but also, it’s acknowledging the garbage situation.

Charli: Totally.

Meg: Okay, so what I want to know, first of all, is I want both of you to just kind of explain what it is that you do as individuals, and then we’ll also get into what you do together. But Femke, why don’t you go first? What do you do for work?

Femke: So, I am a product designer, and I currently work at Uber on Uber Eats. So, I work there full-time, have been there for about three years now. And on the side, I run a podcast with Charli. It’s called Design Life. That’s why we’re here. We’re super excited. And I also have a YouTube channel that’s all about design and research. So, my podcast and my Youtube channel are kind of my two main side projects that I have at the moment.

Meg: Amazing. And we will dissect that later on. Charli, explain to us what you do.

Charli: Well, I’m also designer, surprise surprise, but I’m a marketing designer, so I am an in-house designer within the marketing team of a tech company. The company I work for is called ConvertKit. We make email marketing software. I’m the lead marketing designer there and on the side, like Femke, we have a podcast, I also have a YouTube channel. I’ve been making YouTube videos for about six and a half years now.

Meg: Wow!

Charli: Yeah, long time. There’s a lot of my life catalogued on video, it’s quite scary to think about. That’s my main thing that I’ve been doing on the side. I also just see myself as a creator in general. So, there’s always ideas that I want to act on and try and make things. So yeah, that’s me.

Meg: So, it’s just you both do so much, and I know that whenever I explain on paper all the things that I do, usually everyone’s response is like, “Oh my gosh, how do you have time for all of that?” And for me, it’s very easy, like I don’t even think about that at all. Time management isn’t something I think about and really dissect, because I’m just enjoying everything I do. But what do you both say to that question? Because I’m sure you get it a lot too of like, how do you have time for a full-time job in addition to squeezing in all this other stuff in your free time, how do you make the time for that?

Femke: Yeah, well, I think first you have to enjoy that side project stuff that you do. Like you mentioned, if you have that enjoyment, it’s easier to make that time to put into the side project. And I say, make that time in particular, because it’s impossible to find time, right? You’re never going to find time, there’s always going to be something else that you could be doing or you’re going to get busy with something else. And so, we really like to look at it as making time for those things that you really enjoy, and for us, that’s side projects. So, when you have this natural passion and enjoyment for something and you’re willing to make the time for it, make a few sacrifices here and there, carve out time in your day, then it’s easier to make that time to actually show up and put that effort into your side projects. Charli, anything else to add?

Charli: Yeah, I totally agree that it’s all about making time, and I think it’s also about making choices as to what you’re going to focus on and what ideas you’re actually going to act on. Because as creative people, we have so many ideas, and it’s just impossible to act on them all. So, you’ve really got to pick your favorites and pick a version of doing that idea that works for you. So, with my YouTube channel, for example, a lot of YouTubers, I don’t really like that word, but you know, we’ll use it because everyone understands that, they’ll be everywhere, like, they’ll be re-uploading the video to Facebook, they’ll be trying out TikTok right now, and really trying to get their content all over the place. I don’t have time for that. And I like making videos. I like building the audience and connecting with people on YouTube, but I can’t be on all the social medias, and so I don’t try to be. And I just accept that maybe my YouTube channel won’t grow as far because of that because I’m not everywhere like these other YouTubers are, but I’m still enjoying it. And that’s the most important thing to me is that I continue to enjoy my side projects.

Meg: Yeah. And you both have made such a great point about sacrificing and making intentional choices about what to do with your time because I think as humans, we’re so used to comparing ourselves to other people. So, for me as a designer, if I look at either of you, I am immediately going to think about how you affect me. And so, I’ll think like, “Oh, how do Femke and Charli, how do they have time for YouTube channels on top of all the stuff that they’re doing and having a podcast that’s really successful? And I don’t know, mine isn’t as successful and like, I can’t even get one YouTube video up,” and I think it’s important to remember that we’re all doing that. We’re all thinking that whenever we look at each other, and we’re all assessing and getting jealous in other ways, we’re just comparing yourself to other designers and creatives and other humans and noticing what they have that we don’t have and it’s really just a matter of what we’re spending our time on, right? Because we do all have the same amount of time in our day. And so, of course, I might look at somebody who has an amazing portfolio site and be like, “Ahhhh, why isn’t my portfolio site that good?” But that’s just because they spent more time on their portfolio site.

Charli: Exactly.

Femke: I think also, another thing you hear about a lot is the overnight success. Like Charli mentioned earlier in this, she’s been doing her YouTube channel for seven years. Like, it’s easy to come and look at this now and think that we just achieved success overnight. And you know, we had to do barely any effort. But we’ve been doing our podcast for five years now, Charli’s been doing her YouTube for seven years, like this has taken time for us to get here. You have to put in the time and the patience to get to a point like this.

Charli: And also, we like to talk about choosing what you say yes to and what you say no to. So, every time you say yes to something, you are inadvertently saying no to an infinite list of other things, you know? Because I feel that too, feeling jealous of other designers about the cool work they’re doing. For me, when people make little micro sites for cool projects, I’m like, “I want to be able to make that sort of thing, that’s so fun.” And so, when I think about them, I’m like, “Okay, why aren’t I doing that?” Well, because I’m doing all this other stuff that I’m enjoying, and I don’t want to give any of it up. And more time isn’t going to magically appear out of nowhere. So, I have to be okay with the things that I’m saying yes to and accepting that it means saying no to some other stuff, unfortunately.

Meg: Yeah. And I actually have a wonderful list of backup ideas of all the things I want to do someday but I don’t have the time to do them now. And so if something happens, like I don’t know, a world global pandemic, where I end up with more free time than usual, I then look and I’m able to find a silver lining because I’m able to find time for this list that have all these things I didn’t have the time to do before. So, anytime I have a break in my schedule, or maybe I don’t get client work for a while and I start to panic, I could just take it as a wonderful thing and a wonderful opportunity to finally get to some of these things I didn’t have time to do before, which I think is great.

So, I would like to talk with both of you about why you keep starting more things. Like, why do you do this stuff? What is at the heart of this? Let me be your therapist. So, starting side projects outside of having a full-time job, even if the full-time job itself is rewarding and enjoyable, do you think that you start new things or you create these side projects to kind of feel more fulfilled?

Charli: Absolutely. I think that there’s things you need, like as a creative person, there’s things you need to fill your creative buckets and your creative soul, and you can’t always get them all from your job, from this one thing. You shouldn’t expect them all to come from one place. So, for me, one thing that my side projects fill for me that my job doesn’t is the teaching side. I like to connect with other people and share my process and be teaching people about design and watching them get it and understand it and feel like I’m helping. That’s not something I do through work, you know, I’m using my design skills, they’re on our website and making cool things, but I’m not teaching as such. So, the side project is fulfilling me in that way and adding something that my full-time job doesn’t, which is why I don’t freelance on the side because, like, I’m getting my fix of design, and it’s fulfilling me at my job. So, I don’t need to do that on the side, I can spend my time on other things.

Femke: Yeah, I think it also helps for me to have an extra creative outlet. Like if I have an idea and I want to try something new, or see how this works, or challenge myself, or learn something, you know, my side projects are a nice place for me to be able to do that. And it’s kind of risk free, you know, I’m totally in control of it, I can make my own decisions. And so that’s what I really like about side projects too. And an extra benefit that has come from side projects for me has been connecting with other designers and building my network. I actually got my job at Uber through my side projects. That’s how my design manager found me. So, you know, there’s lots of benefits that come from having side projects. Creativity is one, potential future jobs could be another.

Meg: That’s a really good point, and I think a lot of people don’t do side projects because they get hung up on the fact that it’s not going to make them any money. And I guess I usually, unfortunately, I’m not ever thinking about money first. So, every time I do something, I’m just like, “I’m doing this because it’s fun. I don’t care if I make money,” which is a fine attitude. That’s an attitude of many attitudes you can have when you do something, but I think that it’s helpful to realize that maybe if it doesn’t make you money right away, it always leads to something else, and usually almost always leads to something else that involves money.

Femke: Totally. Yeah, there are so many side benefits of having side projects and money is one of many.

Meg: Yes, the side benefits of having side projects. All right, so do you have any advice because I think a lot of people aren’t like us where they have ideas and maybe they don’t know how to take action, or they’re like, “I don’t even know what I could offer the world?” What do you normally say to people that, first of all are just sort of like, “I don’t know what I can offer?” Do you have any tips that you usually give those people?

Charli: Yes, I think that every single person in the whole world has something to offer. And usually, we feel like we don’t because we’re comparing ourselves to others or feeling like, “Oh, there’s already someone who’s better at this than me, so what’s the point of me putting it out there?” I think a great place to start when you’re not sure what to be making and what to be producing is to think about what you’ve learned recently, and something you’re really good at that you could teach other people. Because there is always someone who is a couple of steps behind where you are who can benefit from learning from your experience of this thing. You don’t have to be the best person at web design, we’ll use that as an example, to be teaching someone else about how you personally do it, because you just never know. Like, your teaching style, the way you show something or explain something, could be the thing that makes it click for someone.

Femke: I love that. Yeah, I totally agree. I think another place you could look is, “What is something that you wish you had when you were studying or loved three years ago, or when you were x?” And think about maybe a gap that you saw back then, or something that you would have found really helpful, and use that as an opportunity to explore further and see if there’s something that you could offer in that area. And like Charlie said, you don’t have to be the expert, you know more than someone else on this planet. So, if you can help at least one person, it’s worth doing.

Meg: Exactly. I actually just learned recently, somebody told me that our culture right now, everybody wants knowledge instantly, like they want the results so quickly, and so you’re actually more relatable to most people if you look like you’re just one step ahead of them, so they can have what you have very quickly, so if you appear to be some sort of like, the highest level expert then it’s not as applicable or appealable to people because then they feel like they can’t be you for another 10-20 years. But if you approach them as a human that’s on their level, and give them basic information that helps them to get where you are quicker, or at least allows them to feel like they can have what you have soonish, then that’s more palatable for people. So, I think what you said, Charli, about learning what you’re just a little bit more knowledgeable at than most people are is a great, great prompt.

Charli: Totally.

Meg: Well, thank you both so much for being here with us today and chatting a little bit about side projects. I hope this was the sort of kick in the pants that people need to at least get something started because now is a rough time in human history, and, you know, I’m just trying to give people as much assistance as possible so that they can feel a little bit better about themselves right now. And I think that this was a great conversation for people to hear. So, let’s go one at a time. Charli, where can we find you on the internet?

Charli: Well, you can find me at is my website. Be careful though, because Charli has no “E” on the end of it. I like to be difficult in that way. So, it’s CharlieMarieTV on YouTube. If you want to see some videos, I make vlogs of my process and my work life, essentially, but I mean, that’s another point that things you might find really boring, other people might find really interesting because people seem to really like them. So that’s great. I also love hanging out on Twitter, so if you want to connect or chat with me there, I’m @CharliPrangley.

Meg: Excellent, thank you. And Femke, where can we find you?

Charli: Yeah, you can go to my website, Femke.Design. My name is spelled FEMKE, and you’ll find links to my twitter and everything there. And if you want to see my videos on YouTube, you can just search Femke design and it should come up. It’s all about product design and research. The podcast is a design podcast led by Charli and I, two women in tech, and we talk a lot about design and side projects for motivating creators, and we have an episode most Mondays so you can tune in anywhere you get your podcasts, probably while you’re listening to the show, just search for DesignLife.FM and you’ll find us there.

Meg: Yes, and it’s so great because you go further in depth than anything we have time to do on this podcast so, I think if people like some of the topics that we cover on this podcast, your podcast is obviously the next listen for people to hop into.

Charlie: Thank you.

Meg: Well, thank you both so much for being here. It was great having you.

Femke: Yay. So fun.

Charlie: Thank you!

Meg: You are all the best. We have been getting so many calls into our hotline and I love listening to the voicemails. I’ve been having the best time, and I just want to play another one for you this week. And it’s just the kind of voicemail call I like to hear. So, take it away caller!

Caller: So, if you were to choose a day to celebrate National Make Your Logo Smaller Day, which day would you choose? January 1 being the smallest numerical date, February 28 being the last day of the smallest month, or May 1 being the smallest hand-written with the full month name, or would you choose another date that would be more appropriate for National Make Your Logo Smaller Day?

Meg: Okay, this is the exact kind of question I want to hear from you. Please do not hesitate for calling in with weird questions. Okay. So, if we’re going to create a National Make Your Small Logo Smaller Day, which day? And those options, my multiple-choice options were so confusing and I love it. I think I’m going to go with the smallest, most confusing, handwritten day and month combo, which is May 1, because I think that’s the most confusing answer. And I like the concept of people having conversations saying, “Why is Make Your Logo Smaller Day on May 1?” And then the other person has to explain that it’s the smallest handwritten day plus month day of the year. It’s silly. I also enjoy that it’s Make Your Logo Smaller Day and not Make Your Logo Bigger Day, but I guess when I think about it, every day is kind of Make Your Logo Bigger Day, so it’s nice to have a logo smaller just as a treat to us all.

So, please keep these calls coming because I love them, they make my week. It’s so great to hear your voices. I listen to every single one and I love them so much. The number is 1-833-DEZIGNZ. That’s 1-833-DEZIGNZ spelled weird with “Z’s.” Call the hotline and just tell me what’s on your mind. You can talk to me about how sad you are, how worried you are, how great you’re feeling, despite all the chaos in the world, how giggly you’re getting along with me. I feel like you could hear that I’m smiling in my voice. What a magical time for me right now. Oh, I need to go take a cold shower.

Meg: [Talking in a grizzly, low voice] And that’s it for this episode of Dribbble Overtime. I’m your host Chuck McDivens aka Meg Lewis. And if you want to find me on the internet, my handle is @YourBuddyMeg, or go to And this is about as low as my voice goes, so please like and subscribe to the podcast. Listen wherever you listen to. [Back to normal voice.] I can’t do it anymore. Subscribe and listen to the podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts or at and hang out with us on the internet. I’m on the internet all the time – too often, really. Alright, bye. Hear me next week!