and the blog post..
almost 3 years ago
I think your shot needs some colour and the leading is all wrong... ;)
Believe me, I've had my share of qualms with the way some people do business on dribbble but I can't agree 100% with this rule you've posted.
I refer you to the official About page, where one of the 6 indicated ways dribbble "works" is by "Monitoring Feedback." Personally, I'd get annoyed with posting a shot (of what I'm working on) and not getting any feedback because I didn't explicitly ask for it. This would lead to lots of facepalming and cursing (at least from me).
I don't think it's farfetched to say that most of the designers here use this site mainly as a way to not only promote/preview upcoming work, but also get feedback. Criticism (of the constructive variety) is necessary in a community where a lot of us just back pat most of the time instead of telling it like it is.
Pissing on others is certainly not the way to go about things, but I do sincerely believe that many of us have become better designers through these suggestions.
Discouraging auto-feedback is a risky road because dribbble might fall into the category of being a design gallery, rather than the incredibly supportive community it is at the moment.
Would love to hear your thoughts.
Agreed, Tyler. I suppose in my mind posting something to dribbble is asking for feedback. I'm not looking to get ripped apart, but as Tyler said, there's plenty of room for constructive help. I know I could benefit from consistent helpful feedback from the excellent crop of designers on this site - even when I'm not smart enough to ask for it directly.
it's totally about promoting your portfolio, or the work youre proud of, and thats a good thing. it makes us push a little harder to make something extra good to post here. this isnt a proving ground, it's a showcase of awesome design and inspiration. you have to admit, you only post stuff that's 80 or 90% there, if not 100%.
there's nothing on here that chaps me more than posting something and getting a "awesome! but [insert nit picky pet peeve comment]"
i'm just sayin there's a time to comment and a time to keep it to yourself.
and most people dont know the difference
thanks for stepping up and sharing your thoughts clearly and objectively.
that being said, i do have to disagree with you 100%.
as tyler and jason vanlue have alluded to, i see this as a sharp divide in the direction that the dribble community can go in.
we have two directions:
1) become simply another gallery showcase site, albiet a highly selective and well represented
2) be a community of highly talented designers that are humble and honest enough to submit their work and craft to the constructive criticism of fellow professionals.
like tyler and jason vanlue, i choose the second. we have enough design galleries. let's be useful, and not just pat each other on the back.
even when a project is live and past any further review, i am always open and eager to learn from another designer's viewpoint, as long as it is constructive and honest.
I'd like to draw attention to something you say in your post:
"For all you know, I could be posting the finished product, or the client-approved version, and it’s way past the time where opinion is beneficial."
I agree with the statement on it's own, in that situation it wouldn't be helpful. But then I'd have to pick that point apart and say that you shouldn't really be using Dribbble to showcase finished pieces of work. Dribbble asks "what are you working on" - It's a place for the unfinished and the unpolished in my opinion.
I understand that sometimes you can get excited by a finished product and want to show it off on Dribbble, all finished, working and shiny! Which can be good, but I wouldn't really encourage that unless you have posted shots running up to the finished site and already gave people a chance to offer feedback on the work in progress.
I get where you are coming from, but I think it's the wrong approach. If you don't want feedback, 1. Don't put it on Dribbble. 2. If you feel you have to upload it &amp;amp; don't want comments, just explain that you don't want feedback. I'm sure people would respect that.
Personally I expect anything I upload to be open for criticism or debate, no matter how far along I am with the design, I don't have to ask for feedback, and I don't always want or need it; I just expect it, that's sort of why I'm here. To me that's just the general nature of Dribbble and I'm thankful to anyone who would go out of their way to try and help me improve something I'm working on.
Three - Perfect - Examples.
Veerle Pieters is a shining example of a Dribbbler who is open to feedback and shows her work in various states. Whether she used the feedback or not, it hasn't got in the way of the progress of this project.
I think the point of dribbble is not a folio site. There are hundreds maybe thousands... Back in the old days when dribbble first started we used it to post teasers. "Did you see that new web app so and so is working on man that looks great!" To spark interest in the community, get feedback or just to float ideas around. It's not a 400x300 portfolio that you use to get clients and direct people to see final work. It's a living breathing critique/teaser gallery for yourself. That's what it's 400x300 pixels instead of max upload.
We work in an opinion based industry, and this is an opinion based community. Agree or not, I don't see an issue with people offering there opinion, letting you know what they would change. Your entirely free to disagree and ignore them.
There's only one person being a "douche" around here, and that's the one trying to tell everyone how they should or shouldn't behave.
Wow. I do not think I can disagree enough with this shot Jason. The beauty of what set's dribbble a part from behance, flickr, whatev, is that it centers around discussion.
I would even argue that the fact you posted this shot reinforces the fact that dribbble is centered around community and feedback, not around silence.
Yes, there are quite a few people who simply just post their best stuff, and that's fine. There is nothing wrong with that. Personally, I am delighted when I post something and someone compliments my work, it helps ward off the all to frequent doubts I have about my own design ability and reminds me why I love designing -- and lets me know I am moving in the right direction with a project.
In spite of that, the moments when dribbble has been most valuable have been when I have used for what I believe to be it's inteded purpose: to seek/field feedback from my peers. I work for a company that is just getting off the ground, and our design team consists of one guy. Me. Having the opportunity to post WIP, and get relevant feedback from other professional helps me tremendously. It has proven to be very valuable.
Trust me, designing in a vacuum sucks. No pun intended.
@Ben Garratt Haha, I was going to like your comment until you used the word "douche" - I wouldn't say he's being a douche about it, but I do agree with your first paragraph though! Well summed up in my opinion.
Wow, I was going to post a followup but most people here have done an amazing job summing up anything else that I could think of.
@Liam: Agree he is definitely not being a douche about it, but the first part of the piece was well stated.
@Jason Vanlue & @Jonathon, I agree with you both on designers having humility and being honest but still being constructive. If someone offers their opinion and criticism it might be helpful to look at it as more a tough love approach rather than someone attacking your design.
I would say 99% of the time we are just trying to push each other as designers and make sure we are being challenged and get the best end result possible.
Great discussion here. I actually agree quite a bit with what you guys are saying. Feedback *is* critical. Conversation, discussion, and pushing eachother are my favorite part of dribbble, too. Turning this into an awful gallery site is the last thing I want.
But a few aspects of dribbble contradict what you're proposing.
1) Screenshots are 400x300, too small to convey purpose, context, and intent in the design. How is that enough information for you to tell me my font's not working, or my color's wrong? For design criticism to be effective, you absolutely must have context. Dribbble has none.
2) Dribbble is a community, full of relationships. Even if we could give meaningful feedback, why would I take it from someone I don't know or don't have a mutual respect for? If you don't know me, and I haven't opened the door for feedback, why are you chiming in?
I think it's a fact that most of us only post the stuff we're most proud of, just due to the respect we have for the community. And due to that I propose you keep your (mostly knit-picky) opinions to yourself unless it's clear this thing is up for critique.
@Jason Just a few responses here:
1) The lack of context is true, and a good point you bring up. However, I don't believe the feedback we are looking for or want to receive on dribbble is about whether the design fits the clients needs. More specifically, I believe the feedback is more along the lines of: "that yellow is a touch too bright," or "the text could use about 10px of padding" and so on and so forth.
2) While many of us don't actually know the person providing feedback or a comment, we can agree that networking (and by extension, word of mouth) is an important part of our profession. Without it, we would remove a lot of the attraction/benefits that events like design conferences offer. In fact, commenting on other's shots as well as receiving comments on my own shots I have linked up with many designers that I would otherwise not have any sort of contact with.
@Liam @Tyler - The use of the word was taken from Jason's blogpost: "I present Dribbble Etiquette: The Guide to not being a Douche on Dribbble. " (Im English, so I actually hate the word with a passion, but anyway...)
What I was getting at, taking it upon yourself to produce a "guide" on the "right" way to use the site is bad enough, but to suggest anyone who does what you don't like is a "douche" is in its self pretty much first-class "douchery"
I sort of agree that the size has an effect on the feedback you can give, but it doesn't mean that everything should be dismissed just because we can't see the whole thing. There's still in most cases enough to go on to form some sort of feedback from what we can see.
Although at the same time I think the small size can work in your advantage. You might only want feedback on a particular part of a design, allowing people to focus on a few elements at a time can have it's advantages, especially if you're happy with the rest of the design but need some advice on a particular area.
On the point about people only posting polished work, it's all about personal preference. Some people want to get feedback very early on in a concept, for other people they like to get down their best effort first, and then tweak or change it as and when they want based on the feedback.
I think whether you know the person or not, it's nice to get a variety of opinions. Sometimes it's the people you don't know or aren't "friends" with that can provide you with the most helpful and honest feedback.
I guess the main reason I don't agree with your overall statement is that I see the value in anybody who is willing to give advice or their opinion on something you've made. Plus there's not many professions where you can get the nod of approval from someone whom you idolize.
1) It's easy to be able to tell if colors aren't jiving or the kerning on some letters are way of or fonts don't jive together. However it depends on what kind of 400x300 shot you put up... If its a blue corner there's not much to say.
2) When you post something to dribbble you're submitting it to critique. If you just wanted feedback from your friends you'd send it to them directly. You want to see people like your work, comment on it and get approval from a bigger design collective. That's why you are on dribbble to begin with. While, I understand about nitpicky factors some of those nitpicks can make a huge difference in a design.
I understand we have different caliber designers and creatives on dribbble but, if you're opening your work up to be on here you're going to get the feedback.
However, with design in general EVERYONE (parents, friends, clients, other people, other designer, your dog, a passerby) HAS AN OPINION. Our very nature is subjective... Its not like math where 2+2=4. If you think the design has reached the full potential it can that's where you the designer make the decision that it's finished and time to move on. People will always critique you from here on out it comes with the territory. Take some of their comments into consideration and ignore others as you're work will never make everyone happy. Fact.
how can you give feedback without seeing the whole piece? the limits of the screenshot size is specifically contrary to design criticism. you can't tell what's right and wrong.
it does, however, fit very nicely with teasers, previews, little snapshots into what i'm up to, and yes things in the works (like veerle, great example above). but even veerle's screens aren't enough for you to form an opinion and then deign to give it.
remember, this whole thing was based off cameron's screen grab confab. it was meant to stir thought, inspire, and yes, brag.
I agree with the other sentiments. I would rather people articulate how much I suck at this, then just giving me a thumbs up and a smile.
But on the same side of the coin, I can't expect everyone to jump in and criticize. It takes some cajones to tell a peer that they're doing it wrong.
Jason, don't take offense to criticism. It only makes you look like the pompous ass if you think your work can't be improved (not saying this is an absolute).
Many of us welcome all sincere criticisms.
is feedback on dribbble meaningful? are you people really improving your work based on feedback of your tiny screenshots?
I have received good feedback from dribbble yes. I have read others have received it as well. (in comments on shots)
I have absolutely received great feedback that has improved my work. In fact, my last shot was improved greatly by the opinions of dribbblers (and forrsters), and got on the popular page (a first for me).
Ok Jason, if you think Dribbble is the place to showcase your portfolio, then you misunderstand the purpose of this community.
As far as I see, Dribbblers are very kind, polite and the comments are constructive.
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